Discussion in 'General Chat' started by ONEDUNME, Oct 9, 2017.
I reckon that's the first time that smilie has ever been used.
Forget anything paying less than 3% as you want to be at least beating inflation with your money or you are just losing purchasing power long term.
You can get 5% risk free on cash with a nationwide flex direct current account on up to £2500
You can get more cash at 5% with the linked nationwide flexclusive regular saver account, plus similar from Santander/HSBC/First Direct/M&S.
Other providers can give you 3-4% returns on cash on similar products.
If you want higher returns than 5% you have to take on some risk with your money so should be capital you are willing to not touch for 5 yrs+. If you are comfortable with that and the risk you can then look at opening an ISA and investing in stocks+shares (global funds the best place to start) or p2p lending plus maybe bonds. You can also invest in property this way. Beyond that there is physical property and cryptocurrencies. Different levels of risk and return for all of these.
jfc this is not a post I would have made 15 years ago
Nice post Jezza thanks
No problem ODM. Looking at your OP if you are going to drip feed every month and not touch the money for 5 years+ then you should definitely look at a stocks and shares isa. All gains and income will then be tax free and with your timescale you can ride out the volatility. Very easy to open with any one of numerous providers and just pay x every month into a global fund.
Over a 1-2 year period anything can happen (including a 50% crash). Over a 5-10 year period you should comfortably beat a cash deposit. Over 25 years+ you will definitely smash any savings account out of the water barring a nuclear war.
You sound like an expert- any advice on particular providers?
Really it depends on a lot of things. Some charge a fixed fee per year. Some charge a small % of your holdings each year. Some charge for buying/selling funds. Most don't charge for that. Some have great websites and amazing customer service. Some of them you are on hold for 50 minutes before a 60 year old nigerian woman comes back from her cigarette break to take your phone call.
If you have a large amount of money and are comfortable with all the lingo a fixed fee provider with a functional website would be good. For a novice who only wants a small portfolio paying 0.25% per year would probably work out cheaper than a fixed fee and good customer service would be more appreciated.
Check out www.comparefundplatforms.co.uk. Charles Stanley Direct are a reasonable recommendation - they charge 0.25% per year with no buy/sell fees and have good customer service. Also have a read of www.monevator.com
You da man!
Jezzza have you dipped your toes into Crypto Currencies yet?
Myself and ODM are just getting into it and I'd just like to know your thoughts.
It is a good thing to be getting into imo, also sadly there is so much guff written on both sides that there is a lot of false information out there.
Most of the articles contain either tabloid style garbage "it's a ponzi/there is no value/it's a bubble/burst burst burst" or from the other side "buy this you will become rich/it's going to the moon/shill shill shill".
One of the best pieces of advice I was given about this was to try and ignore all that and instead focus on the underlying tech and consider how it might impact/change the economy and how the financial system is run/works. You can then also consider who stands to benefit from cryptos becoming bigger and, more importantly, who would stand to lose and what might happen in the very long run. This is hard to do because most articles just focus on the price and trying to manipulate the reader. The truth is that there is real, REAL value there. From a human point of view let's be honest here being able to anonymously and instantly pay for something with nobody ever knowing about it but you and the purchaser does hold value. Some guy see's a hottie on a webcam and it costs the equivalent of £2 to see her naked, no banks or credit cards or statements involved - that's a no brainer. Same as the guy getting divorced who can change some assets into bitcoin/another crypto and send them to some anonymous address he has the private keys to on a file held on a usb stick. Like it or not - without moral judgement - that holds real value for a lot of uses. Blockchain tech can also be used for anything. At the moment buying a car takes a ton of paperwork and registration. Imagine being able to have all of that done instantly, and recorded as undisputed fact on the blockchain. The same for property purchases or legal documents. It is financial inclusion for everyone. Nobody decides if you are worthy of having an account or not, nobody tells you what you can do with your money, nobody prevents you from sending it or routes it through banks charging a multitude of fees and monitoring/questioning your usage. At the moment the global reserve currency is the USD. Not bad and it's the best we have but it's under the control of one nation and subject to their whims and allowances. It would be far better if the global reserve was decentralised. Banks have had to be bailed out massively before in our lifetimes.
It says a lot that the people that are pro bitcoin are the people who have done life changing things in the past - Bill Gates, Richard Branson etc. The people writing shit/getting people to write shit about bitcoin are all proponents of central banking and monetary policy, or stand to lose financially if cryptos "make" it. Cryptos remove the third party middleman from the financial system and they are all completely shitting it (hence the crap they are spouting).
I used to think ok this is all true but at the end of the day this will just be banned. That was an incorrect assumption as the truth is it really cannot be banned now. It is unstoppable and no amount of trying will work, prohibition as a whole never works anyway. Any country that trys to ban it is just wasting a huge amount of time and effort and money. Japan already at the start of 2017 formally recognised bitcoin as a currency which really started the surge in price. It is not going anywhere.
What is true is that this is like the internet revolution again that we all already lived through. That changed the world completely and I believe cryptos are going to do that again although the timespan is going to be far longer this time around. I don't think the full potential of this stuff will be reality in our lifetimes. If its bitcoin or other cryptos who knows. What the price of a bitcoin will be in 10 years time I have no idea about - but this is not going away. When the potential is complete financial inclusion for everybody, no trade barriers no sanctions and no corrupt controlling influences then it will take time but that really is the potential.
However there are a ton, an absolute ton of problems to be overcome and everyone is also getting ahead of themselves. The tech is confusing, its difficult to buy and sell, the prices are extremely volatile, theres no regulation, if someone steals your bitcoin you have no comeback, its barely integrated into the modern world at all etc etc. These are all problems that CAN be overcome but there is an awful long way to go.
The actual crypto currency markets as well are insane. There has never been anything like this financially ever. There are an awful lot of scammers and get rich quick merchants out there making fortunes off this. The closest thing to it is the dot com boom bust where everyone realised the internet was the future and tech stocks between 1994-2000 absolutely surged in price. You only had to list your company with ".com" in the title to guarantee your shares exploding. Most of them even admitted they did not see themselves making money and had no plans, it didnt matter they still listed and made fortunes for the founders. See pets.com etc. Then 2000-2003 everyone realised the truth and stock markets crashed hard. Fast forward till now and the "good" companies from 1999 like google and amazon survived and went onto huge highs well above the year 2000 peak despite crashing hard during the bust. The scams all went to 0 long after the founders had cashed in their holdings. The crypto markets at the moment are like that but multiplied by 10,000. Out of the top 1000 cryptocurrencys by market cap I would guess only 5% will still be around in 20 years time and the other 95% most will have been scams with no value but some will simply have been overtaken by better tech. Yet the entire market is exploding exponentially every day. There was a coin recently where they announced on twitter the lead developer had died yet it continued to surge ffs. Coins with known scammers behind them are up 500% in the last 48 hours. It is a joke. There will eventually be the hugest hardest crash ever where I suspect all these shitcoins will be hit the hardest but there is explosive growth happening in the entire sector every day just check www.coinmarketcap.com to see the latest moves on prices.
It;s the riskiest and most volatile asset class on the planet by a huge margin but I don't believe it's going anywhere as the potential is there, and that will eventually hold out. I wouldn't put anything in that I wasn't willing to lose completely though and I would want to research the actual facts very carefully before doing so. I wouldn't go putting any money in until you completely understand what it is you are buying especially with some of the alternative coins.
Fantastic Jezza, that's probably the best post we've ever had on this forum
Like you I don't believe it's going anywhere either and only risk what you can afford to lose.
At the same time though I believe in this infancy and volatility it's time to make a move and take a chance on what could yield great dividends.
I've got a wee thread in the background going which I'll tidy up over the weekend and post in the general forums, it's a learning thread in it's infancy but I've done quite well out of it still making a profit as Bitcoin has dipped using altcoins.
Somebody with your knowledge would be a great addition to it mate.
I agree with your comment about it still being in the early stages, because if what I said is true then it really is still just beginning to happen. Are you mining the altcoins? Mining bitcoin (I believe, I have never tried it) is not cost efficient in the UK. As in you will spend more on electricity doing it than you will make from the bitcoins you get, despite the huge price surges. But I did read its possible to turn a profit from mining altcoins not that I have ever tried it.
I'm trading at the moment Jezza, looked into mining but like you say the energy costs outweigh the returns, thought about doing it in work and probably could get away with it but I'd still need a top end GPU and CPU which in a volatile market put me straight off it as where would be the enjoyment, I could mine for 12 months and end up with the minimum returns same with farming, could outsource but you're at the mercy of the market whilst paying $100's if not $1000's a month for what?
Buying Crypto and dealing yourself is my choice which I like, it's like anything else put the research and dedication in and you'll reap your own rewards,.
Getting up in the morning and looking at your Blockfolio portfolio not knowing what to expect once you've added all the data is quite a buzz
I'm getting quite a lot of fun out of this, it's like when I first started betting on the nags and did very well until I was quids in then took my foot off the gas thinking the bookies always win, I was very naive at the time and before the time of betting exchanges.
With Crypto it's not as black and white as you might lose but with the same bet you could win twice as much the week after with the same stake without risking anything, if not just hold onto it as eventually it'll move upwards usually within the same month.
I'm no expert at this and still have tons to learn, but I'm enjoying it immensely.
I reckon if we got a good team together we could do very well in this market.
A superb post, Jezza It's good to actually read a non-biased view rather than the stuff spouted by people with agendas.
Slick - might be a few interesting things to read on there.
Cheers Seen, looks a great resource, I'll definitely get stuck into those articles.
I found these a big help to understand the basics, including why miners have to solve complex maths problems.
Thanks Seen and yes that is exactly why you should just focus on learning about the tech if trying to understand bitcoin imo. One of the major hurdles it has however is that it's confusing as fk in all departments .
Edit : I guess in a way I might be biased as well nowadays, it is just I arrived at the conclusion there is no credible argument that it will ever be stopped by those that want it stopped and since the potential is there...........
Nice one slick, I am looking forward to participating. Are you looking at different altcoins or more bitcoin in general?
I'll try and get it up later Jezza so to speak lol
I'm looking at different alt coins to increase my bitcoin because I've been using bitcoin to buy to them.
I also like looking at the different alt coin projects, find the right one and investing early seems to be the way to get rich quick if you find the right one.
(could create some great discussion subjects.)
Bought some Ethereum too recently as it seems to be on the up,it also gives you more scope when buying alt coins because most are now accepting it as a buying currency along with Bitcoin.
What I like is, even while researching alt coins your initial Bitcoin/Ethereum investment in general rises while stored in your wallet, it can increase more in a day than it would 5 yrs stuck in a bank account.
I know it can also go the other way but it soon picks up again and starts marching on, whether that'll always be the case I don't know hence I'm only playing with money I'm prepared to lose.
Yep if you are looking to purchase alt coins its almost always better to turn your gbp into ethereum or litecoin and send that to the exchanges to trade. Some large fees and delays on bitcoin transactions recently but ETH/LTC are always cheap and quick. Even if you have to do GBP into LTC then send to an exchange then trade LTC to BTC then BTC to your alt it works out way cheaper and quicker than just buying btc to trade.
I agree it is incredibly tempting to try to get the explosive returns of alts. My biggest success was buying xvg in the summer and seeing it go 41x the price I paid for it. Truth is you have to compare the growth of the alt you bought vs the growth of btc to get a fair comparison and 90% of the time you will have fallen behind, myself included.
True, I've also bought shitty coins at rock bottom prices and sold them as soon as there's been a positive movement, it's been a quick way to double a few small investments. I wouldn't dare invest anything worthwhile in them mind lol
Do you use blockfolio Jezza?
It's a great little app to keep on top on your investments and see where you're upto.