Discussion in 'Betting Talk' started by ONEDUNME, Aug 19, 2012.
Now if this was a quality service they were offering, it might not be so bad, but it's pictures are constantly breaking up or being lost altogether (almost ALWAYS on the ATR tracks, which are 6 seconds behind live, funnily enough) and they seem not to give a flying fuck about this (a problem which had been ongoing for many months), not a day goes by without several problems.
Not sure why they are doing this anyway, as you can simply lay a horse at 1.01 to a fiver, select KEEP BET option, then cancel as they jump off.
fucking about with "improving" their interface. Every single change they make is a step backwards.
Reminds me of what a bunch of cunts companies like British Gas were before they had the monopoly taken away.
I got this wrong, you can't do this, I was getting mixed up (thought it sounded too easy when I was typing it ) - haven't used BF video for ages, I use Bet365 who let you watch their (far more reliable) video for 50p per race (I usually just back the fav 25p ew).
The best workaround would be to stick a fiver on the fav in the place market then lay it back off as they jump, you might lose a few pennies but still the best option - apart from not using their video at all, that is.
Should Betfair change its name to BetUnfair Extended outages in the summer, voiding of bets and entire markets after the end of the event, and the increase in premium charges: Betfair is downgraded to 4.5 (5). While in absence of competition it remains a good web site, the question is for how long?Betfair recently voided a pre-season football match between Oxford and Everton after the match took place. The reason adduced was that Everton played with the reserves and should have been listed as Everton XI.Customers on the Betfair forum called the decision to void the market after the end of the event “disgusting” and indicated that at least one, but probably two other matches in which teams that played with their reserves were not listed as such were not voided by Betfair, legitimizing a conspiracy theory that suggested that the void of the Oxford vs Everton match had more to do with which customer/s lost money in that match rather than the reason given by Betfair.But the void of the match was nothing compared to the changes to the Betfair's premium charge, which now sees customers with lifetime net profits in excess of £250,000 pay commissions at rates of between 40% and 60%.Even though the betting exchange claimed that the higher rates affect only around 500 customers, it is how Betfair justified the decision to raise its commissions that infuriated its customers.Betfair said the new rates would apply only to those customers that pay less in commission than what costs the exchange to service them, either because they use the Betfair infrastructure extensively or they withdraw their winnings faster than new funds are added back by other existing or new Betfair customers.In other words, Betfair is punishing successful punters for withdrawing winnings that belong to them.As a punter on the Betfair forum pointed out, "Betfair have overdone the development of the site with things the average punter doesn't need but effectively has to pay for"."Betfair should also look at its financial projections realistically rather than trying to please shareholders that are obviously disappointed after the company lost half of its value since floatation".Furthermore, "the limitations in the exchange model are now becoming apparent" and none of the justifications Betfair is coming up with will help them recover the trust of their customers.Betfair claimed the new premium charges are to help the exchange's losing customers to lose more slowly.How does charging winning customers 60% have anything to do with losing more slowly for everyone else?The company's CFO Stephen Morana suggested that the amendment to the pricing structure focused on a small number of individuals who have betting and trading patterns that have been getting around the existing premium charge.A long time member of the Betfair forum put it best: "The Betfair we registered with 10 years ago simply no longer exists...the company got it wrong and we now know that winners are no longer welcome."Traditional bookmakers always accused to welcome only losers are apparently not alone anymore.Betfair's former promise that "winners are always welcome" was withdrawn when the exchange introduced the first premium charges a couple of years ago. But now in a statement to the City, Betfair actually suggested that in the future it could develop "an integrated exchange and sportsbook combination". Whether Betfair will at some point complete a transition and become a fully fledged bookmaker or operate simultaneously as bookmaker and betting exchange remains to be seen.Just like it remains to be seen whether the traditional bookmakers will then put on stage the funeral of the betting exchange.And this is what it all comes down to: as long as Betfair operated only as a betting exchange and had no delusions to be anything else, it was a well respected brand that revolutionized the betting industry.Then it started adding products it could upsell to its existing customers, such as poker, casino and games. And finally it became a public company and it stopped caring about its customers. Now it is all about making the most money and keep shareholders happy.In absence of true competition it may well be that Betfair will continue to thrive, but if I was a Betfair executive I would at least listen what those customers that supported the company when it was only an exchange and remained loyal to it contributing to the successes Betfair has had over the years, have to say.One of them, which also happens to be one of the 500 hit by the latest premium charge increase, recently wrote an interesting post on the Betfair forum.Announcing that he was reluctantly taking his business elsewhere, he stated: "My main activity on a market is putting up unmatched backs or lays and laying off liabilities, therefore, I am doing my bit to create liquidity and stimulate matching activity. Betfair may believe that their brand, marketing or various site features draw people to the exchange but in reality all users care about is liquidity and website reliability. As long as it is worth their while operating here, regular traders will provide the liquidity which keeps people here and stops the competition growing. By pushing me elsewhere, Betfair lose my commission/20% PC and they lose the activity that my trading creates. For the non PC customers who think it benefits them, how is the removal of successful traders going to improve their success rate?"And again: "Up to now Betfair has a loyal customer base and consistent income stream from people who have been here for up to a decade. In my opinion, if Betfair continue to alienate winners they may end up with a customer base of sporadic punters and so the requirement to continually attract new customers increases signifcantly. And this is exactly what an exchange market is about: traders play a significant role in the liquidity of many racing markets, but as trading requires lot of resources a commission of up to 60% makes the actvity no longer viable."Betfair introduced the 20% premium charge in September 2008 claiming it would cover costs incurred in providing the most successful customers such as traders and in-running punters a platform they could profit from.Now with the raises of the premium charge and the reasons that accompany them, what Betfair is really saying is that if 60% won't be high enough, then they'll take even more.So much for the Betfair Customer Commitment, a set of 14 promises the exchange made in June this year with the aim to deliver the best possible service for its customers.Betfair CTO Tony McAllister recently told the BBC that complying with gambling laws in different countries is a challenge but adapting to foreign markets is vital.But in between news of huge pay increases for management despite the company lost half of its value since it went public and the announcement that Chief Executive David Yu is stepping down, the last of key figures to depart the company in recent months, Betfair faces hard times ahead at home in the UK and not only abroad.A reader of Bookmakers Review told me: "When they came up with the premium charge back in time I was seriously pissed off. I just couldn't undestand the logic. They give big winners a significant discount in fees but then they take it back via premium charge."He continued: "I know several big punters who will have problems with the new charge since it will turn their strategies from being profitable. If they lose some of the really [big] market makers they will face serious problems with their core business."A recent poll among Betfair's employees revealed the exchange staff believes the company's management was lacking direction.If they go back to the origins and start listen to their customers again, the company that changed the betting industry online and offline, still has a chance to regain its customers respect.Until then, the name BetUnfair is more appropriate and reflects in a better way the direction the company is going. Pierluigi BuccioliDate published: 26 September 2011
Hills stitched me on a 12/1 winner on Friday, i only had a quid on too!
5.00 at Ffos Las, It was a 3 mile hurdle, i wasn't watching it on t.v and presumed the race hadn't started as they accepted the bet, normally the bet slip goes pink with the message 'This event has already started' and doesnt allow the bet. I checked my statement later only to find the bet had been voided and they'd refunded my quid. When i messaged them about it they told me that the bet was placed 1min 2 secs after start time but i argued that they accepted the bet. If it was over 5 furlongs i could understand but it was a 3 mile hurdle, mine was last all the way round up untill the last two hurdles and it was the outsider of 5. They took the bet a minute in and It took the horse 6 minutes 10 seconds to win the race. I know they wouldn't of refunded my quid if the horse would of lost, cunts.
They probably would of made 2 to 3 hundred quid or more out of me this year as they generally do, i told them this but all they could offer was a £5 free bet as a gesture of good will, the piss taking bastards. They wont be having another penny out of me.
Anyway, interesting read Seen, BetUnfair, and i only came in to post this, i'm not sure if the fella is right with his facts but i thought i'd pass it on all the same.....
bet365 and fifty prices better than Ladbrokes and still not have one price that's the best available. In addition, most of the prices that are better are the massive outsiders (Fulham at United for example) which your average punter is not going to want to be backing anyway. Same with the horses, they quote how much better their prices are but when you're taking into account that someone's offering 200/1 on 50/1 shots, you're not talking about the bets that people actually want.
You will almost always find a better bookie price available on the favourite in a horse race but when you get to the rags, betfair prices will always be better. In summary, if honesty were ever to be introduced into advertising, their slogan would have to be "Betfair - Better prices than the bookies on all bets that aren't likely to win".
On the 18th of July last year, Betunfair introduced the (disgraceful) 40% - 60% Premium Charge, and by a truly astonishing coincidence, on the VERY SAME DAY the 'live' pics from racing channel ATR were suddenly slowed down a further 3 seconds - which meant that the pictures viewers were watching at home were actually between 6.5 and 7 seconds behind live (try counting that in a race, it's about half a fucking furlong).
Now, the pics on ATR had been consistently around 3.5 - 4 seconds behind live for YEARS, so for them to suddenly be delayed a further 3 seconds can only have been a deliberate action and not some unavoidable situation with the satellite transponder or whatever other bullshit they might try and throw to us (yes, really, the transponder ). So why would they deliberately slow the already slow pics down? Simply because slower pics on ATR greatly benefits those paying the new PC (hence the 'coincidental' date of change), either using SIS from home (£7K a year) or in the on-course trading rooms (£300 per day or whatever it is now) - more free money courtesy of the cannon fodder mugs at home for them to gobble up to soften the blow of having to hand over 40 - 60% of their weekly profits to Betunfair. In the words of Walter White (spoiler alert), "everybody wins" - (except the mugs watching ATR, of course).
Funnily enough, since the picture slowdown my average daily/weekly/monthly profits have doubled, as thankfully I have been able to find an edge over others using slow pics (by 'slow pics' I mean Live Video, not ATR, as I seriously doubt anyone tries to use the latter for in-running now - although the former is still 3.5 seconds behind live). So although purely for selfish reasons I'm glad they slowed the pics down, I still know it's completely and utterly wrong what they did and I also know it could have easily gone the other way and finished me.
If you go to the Premium Charge portal at https://account.betfair.com/regpay-myaccount/premiumcharge/summary.html while logged in to Betunfair, it will tell you things such as your lifetime profit, total number of markets you've bet in, how much commission you've generated (not to be confused with how much comm you've paid) and what percentage of your total winnings you have given back to Betunfair. Well, it will tell you all of these things providing you are in profit overall - if you happen to have lost more than you have won then instead of seeing all of these interesting stats, you are simply told that...
...it seems like Betunfair don't want their losing customers knowing just exactly how much they have lost - and certainly don't want them knowing how much commission they have paid over the years.
The original 20% Premium Charge was brought in when Betunfair realised that more of their customers were becoming consistent winners, which meant that although they were still paying commission on each winning market, they weren't turning their money over as regularly as the average punter, which meant less commission being creamed off and also the money in their accounts being withdrawn faster than other (losing) customers deposit (Betunfair don't want customers who win consistently or customers who lose regularly either - they want us all to win lose win lose win lose so our only losses are what Betunfair take in commission).
The propaganda which Betunfair spewed out which suggested that the only people who would be hit by the PC were a tiny percentage who were courtsiders/fast pic thieves/those that lay fallers etc certainly worked to a fair extent, as it's pretty hard to find anyone who sympathises with those hit by the PC unless they pay it themselves - of course, it's human nature to not really give a fuck about something unless it affects you directly but Betunfair really went out of their way to paint those hit with the PC as being a cancer to the exchange. Of course it would be a whole lot more acceptable had Betunfair decided to distribute the PC money to their losing customers to even things up a bit, but no, they keep it all to themselves.
The fact that the PC is worked out on a weekly basis is totally unfair too - imagine you and your mate went in to Corals and each stuck a tenner on the same horse. You watch it win at 10/1 and both go to collect your winnings. Your mate picks up £110 but you are handed just £90. When you complain you are told that you have had to pay a £20 surcharge because their records show that you have already won £200 in there this week. When you state that you lost £400 the week before and £300 the week before that, they simply tell you that this is irrelevant because they operate this surcharge weekly. With the PC, you can have a good week and pay a chunk in PC (on top of the comm you've already paid) but if the following week is a bad one and you lose heavily you get fuck all back off them.
One other thing which hardly anyone knows about - and this is a real pisstake and tantamount to theft imo - is that when Betunfair calculate how much your Total Charges % is for the week, rather than simply divide the total commission paid by your weekly gross profit, they have introduced a highly elaborate and confusing formula which (unsurprisingly) spins things in their favour, making each weekly combined commission and PC higher than the 20% they claim to be taking.
To explain I'll use my figures from last week (I'm aware of forum etiquette of posting actual winnings/stakes etc but it needs to be done here to explain properly, apologies to anyone offended)...
I had a good week and my Gross PL was £574.42, and the commission I'd paid was £61 (I know this as I keep daily records of profit/loss & commission). This means that I had paid a total of 10.62% commission, and therefore should have been charged a further 9.38% (£53.88) in PC to make my total payments to Betunfair 20% (£114.88).
However, using Betunfair's 'magic' formula they tell me that my Commission Generated is £43.21, which is just 7.52% of my Gross PL, and therefore my PC for the week is 12.48% (£71.67), bringing my total payment in PC/comm to £132.67 (£61 comm + £71.67 PC) - equal to 23.1%.
So even though they are calling this the 20% Premium Charge, thanks to their formula which uses Commission Generated rather than Commission Paid, they have nicked an extra 3.1% (£17.79) from me. This might not seem much as a single payment, but over a year that would equal £925.08, which is of course from just one small fish in a very large pond. And don't forget, this figure is on top of the supposed 20% Premium Charge which is, in turn, on top of the commission already paid (I'm on 4.6%).
This little scam of theirs is rarely focused upon or even mentioned, presumably because those who are not paying PC simply don't care and those who are paying are fed up with their complaints falling on deaf ears. With the BF share prices continuing to fall (my heart bleeds, no, it really does),
things will only get worse as they continue to move further and further away from the company they originally set out to be. With the toothless Betdaq seemingly having no intentions whatsoever to expand and attempt to be a serious rival to Betunfair (how many times are they going to miss the chance to capitalise on BF pissing off their customers?) Betunfair will continue to monopolise the exchange market.
British bookmaker Ladbrokes is in 'deepening' talks to acquire Betdaq, the Ireland-based online sports-betting exchange owned by businessman Dermot Desmond. The reported deal is thought to be worth in the region of £50m according to the UK's Times newspaper, although industry experts believe that there is just a 50-50 chance of the takeover taking place.
Ladbrokes has been looking for opportunities to expand its online presence, having held talks to purchase online gaming company 888 Holdings earlier in the year, which came to nothing. A source quoted in the Times article though called any move for Betdaq 'more of an opportunisitc in-fill'.
The talks come as Ladbrokes prepares to issue its half-year results, which are expected to show that delays have eaten even further into the £15m of profits expected from digital. Richard Ames, product director, has subsequently left the firm, while Nick Rust will take over online operations, as well as retail and trading.
A couple of things to add....
If you watch the Live Video alongside the Betfair interface (with auto-refresh on), you will see that the race suspends on Betfair and goes IN-PLAY simultaneously with the stalls opening on the video, and then at the end of the race the market suspends just as the winner hits the line - but as Live Video is 3.5 secs behind live what we should see is the BF market suspending and going IN-PLAY 3.5 secs before we see the race start and then suspending 3.5 secs before we see the winner hit the line.
Now, that means the pre-race market is left open 3.5 seconds AFTER the race has began, which conveniently allows those with the fastest pictures to help themselves to free money on any runners which might have refused to leave the stalls (flat) or planted themselves at the start (jumps), or if the jockey falls off as they jump off (rare but does happen).
This also means that at the end of the race the IN-PLAY market is left open for 3.5 seconds AFTER the race has finished, which conveniently allows those with the fastest pictures to help themselves to free money on the winner (and placed horses in the place market).
Once again, BF are perfectly happy for this to continue as the big-punting 1.01 / 1.02 / 1.03 backers who rarely have losing races provide plenty of commission and PC.
Back in 2008 Betunfair introduced cross-matching, which helps bets to be matched by matching different selections in the same market (so if I asked for £10 at 2.0 (evens) on a horse and the price wasn't there, yet the Betfair bot could lay the rest of the field to equal the same bet (or better) then it would do so). It sounds a great idea, except that if Betfair managed to lay at combined odds of less than 2.0 (say for example 1.8 (4/5)), instead of returning me a £10 win at 2.25 (5/4) they would return me at the price I asked for (2.0) and pocket the rest.
BF got a bollocking later in the year for implementing this without telling their customers and were forced to offer the following apology...
The Gambling Commission later said...
So, in just 6 weeks Betunfair made £300,000 from their cross matching bot, which equals £50K per week - all from skimming the markets and pocketing the difference. Surely it's not right for an exchange to be playing in their own markets?
COMPLETELY FUCKED THE SITE
Considering that every single time they do an upgrade the site goes down during the following few hours, maybe they should, like, you know, just leave the fucking thing alone.
Commission free maybe, but no prices until 10.00 am and restrictions already on a new service.
All the prices appear lower than the exchange prices come race time, so it just seems easy money to take all these fix odds bets and then use their cross matching bots to hoover up all the exchange prices.
I haven't made any comparisons between the fixed odds and bookies early morning prices, which may be of interest, as it's difficult to get an early price now, especially on the place portion, but is there not a conflict of interest here?
Will they be using the final betfair FO price as a comparison when the publish how well the exchange compares to other bookies.
I can understand it benefiting the multiple punter, but either I'm missing something obvious. as I really don't get it.
I'd also be interested to know if the established bookies who play into the exchange are also able to play the fixed odds.