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Warning to any gamblers in Spain

Discussion in 'Betting Talk' started by rcgills, Jun 4, 2012.

  1. rcgills

    rcgills Moderator

    Messages:
    3,953
    Not sure whether we've got any members in Spain, but just on the off-chance we have, I'll mention this here. All of this is based on what I can make out through reading around on Spanish forums, but I stand to be corrected if there's anything wrong in this.

    As of tomorrow (5th June), new gambling licences issued by the government to authorised bookies will be coming into effect. All bookies granted a licence will have to switch from a .com domain to .es. The bookies will be required to take the national ID card number of anyone signing up with them (apparently accounts can't be transferred from the .com site to the .es site, they have to get you to sign up again, although there seems to be some confusion over this point).

    From that point on, the Spanish tax office will have access to your records, and tax will be payable (as it always has been, strictly speaking, but with bookies based outside of Spain, the tax office has had no way of knowing what people are winning). With typical Spanish organisation, though, they're bringing this law in without thinking things through, and there is one major doubt, at the moment. As the law currently stands, gambling is considered a game of chance, in the same way as for example the lottery, bingo, scratchcards, etc. As such, any money you win can be considered taxable (I believe that's only above a certain amount, although I'm not sure about that), but anything you lose over the same time isn't taken into account. This means that you could end up with ridiculous scenarios:

    Stakes over the course of a year: 10,000
    Returns: 9000
    Profit/Loss: -1000
    Amount taxable according to the current law: 9000 :unsure

    or maybe a very occasional but large-stakes gambler:

    Stake: 10,000 at 1/10
    Returns: 11,000
    Profit/Loss: +1000
    Amount taxable according to the current law: 11,000 :unsure

    **Edit** - And don't even get me started on the possible consequences of trading on Betfair :puke
    **Edit 2** - The same also applies for poker.

    The head of the gaming commission that's dealing with all of this has admitted that this is a problem that needs to be looked at (no shit Sherlock ... a year or so when this was all at the planning stage would've been nice :duh), stating that they're in discussions with the tax office, and that in this case, the most logical thing to do would be to deduct any deposits made from your winnings, and make that the taxable amount. However, the decision isn't his, it's the tax office's, and with the country well and truly in the shit, nothing can be taken for granted, ridiculous as the above may be.

    Also worth noting that the bookies that have been granted licences were required to first make backdated payments to the tax office (not sure how far back it went, but as an indication, Bwin have paid 33.6m euros, Sporting Odds 17.2m, Betfair 10m). You'd think that they wouldn't be paying those amounts unless they were pretty sure the law was going to be changed, as if it's not changed, nobody's going to be gambling in Spain any more.

    As I said, I stand to be corrected on any of the above, but that's my understanding of it. So until this situation is cleared up, I'd suggest that anyone based in Spain thinks carefully before placing any bets at any ".es" bookies. All common sense would suggest that the law will be changed, but until it actually happens...

    Incidentally this new law may also affect anyone on holiday in Spain, as I believe bookies with the .com domain (which obviously UK-based punters would have) will be blocked in Spain, so not sure whether you'd be able to place bets while in Spain.
  2. hotspur

    hotspur Active Member

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    2,215
    WHAT!? I wont be able to place any bets while I am in Spain!!!?
    Unfuckingbelievable!
    I see a business opportunity there:unsure
  3. rcgills

    rcgills Moderator

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    3,953
    In theory no (at least, I don't think so). In practice, I imagine the usual solutions of using a proxy server will serve as a workaround.

    I really can't see the point of the .com sites being blocked - all the government want to do is stop Spanish residents betting on .com sites and make them use the .es sites. But .com sites presumably won't be able to accept customers based in Spain anyway (much the same as if you try to sign up from the US, I believe), so it seems a bit pointless blocking them.

    As I said, they really don't seem to have thought things through properly, and now with the new system supposedly a few hours away, they're still making things up as they go along :grr
  4. ONEDUNME

    ONEDUNME Administrator

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    9,990
    That's shocking.

    Obviously I knock on from the financial collapse and its consequences. Governments are looking at ever more inventive ways of screwing money out of their citizens to pay for the banking fuck up and whether they're fair or workable is at the bottom of their checklist. Any money they may manage to grab is better than nothing.

    I'm on a European cruise in July - luckily no football on but I was toying with the idea of keeping my horse racing betting ticking over. I might just take a couple of weeks off and go cold turkey:cold
  5. ONEDUNME

    ONEDUNME Administrator

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    9,990
    We need to collectively hope to fuck it flops like a bad thing otherwise it might give some of the other cunts ideas.

    I'm assuming I'll be able to reach an online bookie when I'm in Gibralter? Or would it depend on whether my internet connection was being routed via Spain?
  6. hotspur

    hotspur Active Member

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    2,215
    Shockings not the word!ODM on a cruise!:eek
  7. rcgills

    rcgills Moderator

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    3,953
    I can understand them wanting to get their share from the bookies themselves, and even (although it's a real shitter for gamblers) that they want to get tax from people's winnings. It's the fact they have so little understanding of the situation and want to only tax the winning bets without being able to offset the losers that's the real worrying bit.

    I would have thought though that it has to be in the government's interests to change the rules. They'd have two choices:

    1) - Don't change the rules. Land some massive tax bills from people caught by surprise who didn't know about these new rules over the next year or so - tax declarations for 2012 (the tax year runs from Jan-Dec over here) won't be made until May-June 2013. If the rules aren't changed, it's conceivable some people may not find out until they get hammered with a massive bill next June, plus another one in 2014 for what they'd have been betting in 2013 up until June. After that, they won't make a cent (or a peseta, we'll have to see whether we're still in the euro by that stage :lookaround) from taxes on gambling, and the bookies will all shut down the .es domains and no longer bother with the Spanish market.

    2) - Change the rules: Slow, steady income. Plenty of people who lose regularly wouldn't pay anything at all (although of course the bookies would pay tax for all the money they make from those losing bets), would only affect the successful gamblers. Would probably take them years to make the amount they could make under the first scenario, but at least they wouldn't kill the industry off, and they'll have a regular income for years to come, so more profitable in the long-term.

    Of course, having said that, the country's fucked now. Maybe they will be tempted to take the short-term view? Or adopt scenario 1 for now, screw everyone over next year, and then when there's an outcry about it, change the rules for the following year? Best of both worlds?

    It's the uncertainty that's the really annoying thing in all of this. Apparently there's a way of sending what they call a "binding question" to the tax office, meaning that the answer they give you is binding to them. A Spanish poker site sent them a question some time ago, asking for clarification of the situation with regard to taxes, what has to be declared, etc. They've still not received an answer. So are they avoiding answering because they're still working on the legislation to change the rules? Or are they avoiding answering because they're not planning on changing anything and they know everyone will stop betting if they officially announce that? Having said that, the cunts at the tax office are useless anyway - when I first got here, I needed confirmation on something, went to see them in person, got a reply ... and after doing as they said, the bastards tried to fine me for it. Luckily my accountant got me out of it, but from that day on, I've never trusted them.

    And in the meantime, the Euros are about to start and everyone in Spain too shit scared to place a bet :cry
  8. rcgills

    rcgills Moderator

    Messages:
    3,953
    To be honest I've no idea what would happen from Gibraltar. Gibraltar's British, of course (and if you ever want to annoy a Spaniard, remind them of that fact :lol), but don't know whether in terms of internet connections they would go via Spain.
  9. hotspur

    hotspur Active Member

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    2,215
    Maybe Gamblers Annonymous should be telling its members to book hols in Spain!
  10. rcgills

    rcgills Moderator

    Messages:
    3,953
  11. hotspur

    hotspur Active Member

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    2,215
    To be fair,Ive always found telling them that they are the son of a whore works better
  12. rcgills

    rcgills Moderator

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    3,953
    This is a country where "I shit in your whore of a mother" is a fairly common insult. Trust me, Gibraltar works better.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18098104
  13. hotspur

    hotspur Active Member

    Messages:
    2,215
    I trust you...and thanks for the tip re insults.

    If I find my relatives I will ask them how pissed off they personally are about Gibralter.

    I do realise its human nature to be very upset if another country is effectively occupying your land.I was just joking.
    However,in the case of Spain/Gibralter I wouldve thought it comes down to how hypocritical an idividual Spaniard is...seeing as they have enclaves in Africa.
  14. hotspur

    hotspur Active Member

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    2,215
    Actually,this has reminded me of the time 3 years ago when a dj said on the microphone to a crowd of 1000 people that he would shit on my mother!!:eek:

    I must admit I found this "insult" more funny than anything else and my mother was effectively dying at the time...I think insults only actually work if the insultee detects a grain of truth in them
  15. hotspur

    hotspur Active Member

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    2,215
    thats the last time I asked him for a Bee Gees record:)
  16. Yorkieacer

    Yorkieacer BEST GAMBLER IN WORLD

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    2,257
    What percentage of returns would they have to give up?
  17. rcgills

    rcgills Moderator

    Messages:
    3,953
    Depends on each person. Your winnings would be considered income, the same as your salary. How much you pay on that depends on how much you've earnt altogether, but is usually somewhere around 20%.

    The head of the gaming commission has come out today and said that as things currently stand, there is no possibility to offset your losses :banghead
  18. hotspur

    hotspur Active Member

    Messages:
    2,215
    It really is all the more astonishing because the main reason betting profits arent taxed here is because gamblers would be able to offset losses.

    And am I right in thinking that Spain has-or had-a tax which takes into account a persons overall wealth regardless of where it was?
  19. Yorkieacer

    Yorkieacer BEST GAMBLER IN WORLD

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    2,257
    Wow so say you won £1,100 of a £1000 stake and they took 20% you would end up losing money :unsure Fecking stupid, just keep the way things are, imo you shouldnt have to pay taxes on gambling winnings anyway, Do they have Roulette machines in the shops in spain?
  20. hotspur

    hotspur Active Member

    Messages:
    2,215
    yorkies hit the nail on the head there!!
    The Spanish govt have got this arse about tit.
    What they should be doing is lowering the age for gambling to 14 and installing govt owned roulette machines in every bar and restaurant.

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