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Literary a disaster pending - the rebirth

Okay, firstly, I dont think that 1st chapter will survive in that position. A writing forum I go on reckon its not strong enough to front up, though its okay for a scene. Also they keep picking up on my POV which I never think is confused, but they keep saying it is so I'm beginning to be swayed :unsure Its called the Word Cloud, its not specifically crime although the sister site I review for, Mean Streets, is.

I'll try & explain the theory as best as I can, as obviously its an ongoing project. A couple of people on here have the 40k words to read through at the moment with a few questions at the end to see what they think.
The questions you ask, Hotspur, are very relevant, but they might be a little difficult to explain properly, as certainly the POV aspect will be based upon my own experiences. I was a bailiff in the time scale of that intro, from 93-98, & on the side I also worked as a debt collector & bouncer, so for that 5 year period I will know the books language, atmosphere & setting inside out.

That intro scene may survive, but be changed into the womans POV possible, but when I wrote that as a 1st chapter, I was planning on the whole story being in 1 book. Now, having written 40k words of background & only being up to 1987, I'm considering the option of it being more than one book, possibly 2, possibly 3.

So, when you ask about hero or anti-hero, it is difficult to be answered by me as, in a way, it is me, but a better version of me....type thing :lookaround Hmmm, okay, I certainly dont think he can be described as a hero, but he will have certain heroic tendencies, building as they go (that'll be the better version of me :lol) I'm not describing this very well.....I'll outline the plot in my head as it is now.

Young Irish kid, born 1953, 2 brothers, ones killed in a car accident. Dad never accepts the death, but the guy who did it is protected. Dad goes after him, disappears. Mom & 2 kids forced out of home & into bedsit. She's forced into prostitution to make ends meet. MC, who is eldest, becomes trouble, gets shipped off to Aunties in London. Mom dies after he's gone.
Irish lad growing up in London during bombings, not easy. Takes bar jobs, becomes an assistant manager. His boss owes to a loan shark who's men come calling when boss not there. MC fights them off, coming to attention of a local gangster, who takes him on & he starts working with his main debt collector.
Story follows their escapades for a few years until the MC moves away over a woman issue. The gangsters come & find him after a while as the main debt collector's gone missing. He finds him in a bad way, sticks around till he's better. Head gangster & main debt collector die, & because MC is trusted he is paid off & warned off London by new gang.
After a while he's going to end up in Birmingham where he's drinking heavily, still collecting but running with football hooligans. Then when the poll tax came in & bailiff companies couldnt cope due to the amount of work he joins them. Now at this point, he's been collecting for 20 years, & although he doesnt know it, hes jaded, drifting & breaking down.

Now thats the background, or would be if it was one book. The idea would be to have a crime, like him finding cash or drugs & deciding that was his ticket out, stealing it & going on the run, nasty ending, all done & dusted. Now if I split it into two books the end could still be the same, the split being around 1987-88ish with something around then to finish book 1. If its 3 books then same plan but dilute the finality of the ending of book 2 & then do a further story on it.

The intention would be to show him drifting, falling apart & his perceptions & point of view changing due to the job tearing him apart, so in his own way then he would be becoming a more likeable character as he went on.

So, he would I suppose start, once into debt collecting, as an anti-hero & hopefully grow from there, hopefully I'd get it across well enough to be growing in the right direction :unsure Also, I do realise that an anti-hero, no matter how abstract, is difficult to conquer.
This is sounding like my lifes work already isnt it :lol I did always think that this would be a hell of a lot easier to sell if I was already published.

I should also point out that, although a lot of, if not all the bailiff stories will have either happened to me or to people I knew. For instance, the basis of that intro is true, just I was very lucky to take the baseball bat off him, rather than knowingly disarmed him (I'd run a fucking mile now....slowly :lookaround)
The background bit, is obviously not me. The hooligan bit is also not me, although it is based on friends I know & will use a lot of true life incidents & places. The falling apart, jaded & breaking down part, is, regrettably me, as I became worn down by it all & could not see the wood from the trees. What happened is because I was down to earth I stayed a lot longer than I should have as my approach worked, but in an industry where the average lob length is about 6 weeks, when you've been there 5 years you get shit work day in, day out. I wouldnt say I was particularly good, but I was good at what I did, & I could mostly talk my way out.

There, you asked......:wink
 
swooperman said:
I find that hard to believe having read it, though obviously not my genre. I could see them being potentially unhappy with the content, as in a bit strong possibly, but boring? Could it be a standard rejection mate? Have you tried this lot before? I mean, obviously you being published you have preferred publishers you go to first, I assume, as in them you've succeeded in tricking already :wink
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The rejection was from the synopsis and 1st 3 chapters, so the boring bit was taken from the way I wrote the synopsis. I suppose I have to tart it up a bit. My opinion was the opposite to the editor - I thought it was a good plot that I hadn't pulled off.

I do have preferred publishers, but this is a different sub genre to my published novels which are Celtic supernatural so I'm needing to look elsewhere. Maybe a track record helps though - but it ain't done me much good with Snuff so far :angry

I've read yours, Swoop, and I think I'd go along with the comments you've already had.
 
The 1st chapter you mean? Yeah I'm agreeing as well, though I dont mind it as a scene. Critiquing is a bit hard to get used to tbf, it should probably be called 'rhino skinning' :lol
Be interesting to hear what you think about the POV being mixed though, I hadnt picked up on it before, but I can see it now, as in it goes from her opening the door, to him standing there.
This should be renamed the 'group love' or 'group hug' thread, as we fucking need it :cry

Ffs dont let Yorkie in :unsure
 
swooperman said:
Be interesting to hear what you think about the POV being mixed though, I hadnt picked up on it before, but I can see it now, as in it goes from her opening the door, to him standing there.
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I think you've summed up what I thought very eloquently! I wasn't sure who we were with at the opening; it didn't seem to be the woman, but there wasn't another character mentioned to pin viewpoint on. A bit further in the story, with the reader knowing the context, I think it would have worked better.
 
Yeah, if I rewrite it as an opener, it might just come from her angle. THis kind of thing can send you fucking mad, particularly on sex scene sunday.....they always seem to hit me on a sunday. It was the final point that proved to myself I wasnt religious :unsure
 
I am sorry its taken me so long to reply after asking the hero question.I knew I wouldnt be able to concentrate on your full answer on a saturday!
OK Hes def. not an anti-hero and its very good that you are writing what you know.
Can I get clear from the above comments,that you have been published?
If so,you can imagine I am curious to know what that was?

Is there a book that you have read that makes you think that this can sell?

I gotta say that when I buy a crime based book there had better be at least 2 murders,one of which must be very unusual:).

I reckon,and you probably realise,that ,there needs to be some big crime or he needs to find some big money and go on the run.(as you suggest)
If it was me I would start the book at that point...but I find writing novels much much too hard..

FUNNILY ENOUGH,the novel I attempted had a plot that hinged on something that komp has also suggested...so look out out for a short novella by komp and hotspur 18 months from now:):unsure:eek::eek:lol
 
you know its just occurred to me that the book you are attempting sounds very much like a Martina(?) Cole book!

which is GOOD as it shows that such a story can sell
but BAD cos it would in effect compete with Martina Coles efforts

I forgot to ask,if you had to write the splurge on the back cover,what would it be?
 
in view of the above,I would strongly suggest that if you are serious about this then you should buy every M.Cole book and STUDY them,study the fuck out of them...then copy/use as much as you can
 
Right, in whatever order:

Never read Martina Cole, so certainly not trying to write like her. I've heard she's good, but I'm not in a great rush to read her either.
From people that have read my stuff I have been likened to Matt Hilton & Sean Black in the UK, which is interesting as I feel both write quite amateurishly :lol also Lee Child, but although Ihave some books of his I've never read any I dont think.
My influences are Burke, Lehane, Pelecanos, Temple (big fan) Crais, Nesbo, Wallander....that type of writer. I have read a lot of British writers & enjoyed a lot of them but I wouldnt say any have had the influences on me that the above have, which is interesting as I write in a British genre. Possibly Adrian McKinty & his cronies, he'd probably go down as a big influence thinking about it.
Havent done anything close to the back cover splurge yet, not even close.
I have not been published, nor am I likely to be in my present state of mind

hotspur said:
Is there a book that you have read that makes you think that this can sell?

I gotta say that when I buy a crime based book there had better be at least 2 murders,one of which must be very unusual:).

I reckon,and you probably realise,that ,there needs to be some big crime or he needs to find some big money and go on the run
Click to expand...

Hmm, okay, if my reply here sounds nit picky I dont mean it to be as I appreciate the interest & all comments are welcome. I actually prefer talking about writing on here than I do on a writing forum, bizarrely, & as far as I'm concerned everything helps.

The 'similar book & can it sell' business is interesting. When approaching agents, publishers et al its supposed to be an idea to mention this type of thing but tbh I havent read many heroes along this line. Possibly Peter Temples 'Jack Irish' series, about an Aussie debt collector, private eye, lots of other things...he gets laid a lot if I remember, but no one else springs to mind. I see no reason why he cannot be a success as a character. As TC has said, a bad character is hard to do, but if successful he is a very strong character.
The idea of a flawed hero just trying to do his best through a murky world, ie drink/drugs etc has been done many times, if not to death. My problem/difference is that my man has chosen his profession, much as a copper would do, but its not something you'd grow up wanting to do, is it?
I think its very hard if not impossible to come up with something new, but that in a way is what I'm attempting. Whether it attracts the imagination of an agent/publisher once finished only time will tell. Obviously publication is the aim, but also being happy with what you've produced is arguably bigger. I dont want to sound like a peace loving hippy 'taking part is what counts' but its a hard game to succeed in & its a game with a varied set of goals. Part 1 was achieved when I finished my first one, & I'm proud of that, now I have to make them stronger & get lucky.For instance what I feel is my best now, will I feel the same in 5 years time? Part 5 incidentally is being successful enough to get sucked off by Kate Beckinsale so I feel I'll be working on this for a while :lol
Its a hard, lonely business, but if it was easy then everyone would be doing it. If I decide that what I'm writing is bigger than 1 book then its likely it'll take at least 2 or 3 years, with various other things going on. To be told after that that there is no market is hard to take but thats the game.
I dont think the angle of the 'hero' is that important, as in be all & end all, as long as he's interesting enough & readable. All my main characters tend to be flawed, ex drinkers, have seen the brink etc, & its a well worn road in this day & age, but you can only write what you know, & although the plot hasnt been fully worked out yet, it may well not have a happy ending.

An interesting point is that I've read recently into what publishers are after, & one said she thought grisly murders etc had been done a bit to death (pardon the pun) & she thought it might be interesting, & highly sellable, to read crime novels with no deaths. I'm not saying thats where I'm heading, as I'd feel like the A-Team :lol but its a thought about how to try & get ahead.

The point about the plot, & the 'big crime' is also contentious, as in if it becomes obvious its bigger than 1 book than it needs more than 1 plot. The people that I ask to comment & for advice after reading are actually on here, but are probably unlikely to read this thread, so I'm probably safe :unsure ODM has advised against going too 'big' plot wise, as after reading 40k words he thinks theres enough in it background wise, & I'm yet to hear from Winrew (no rush). now theyve both read 'Navajo' & were full of praise (ODM even used the words 'fucking brilliant' but I think he bombed TDP to cover it up :unsure) but it still needs a lot of luck. I would point out that I wouldnt expect either of these (& Winrew, unknown to me, passed it round his factory & his mom!) to give cheap praise, far from it as thats why I asked them. Obviously TC has read bits, as I have his & his opinion is invaluable as he is published.
We may in fact have the only gambling/critique group in existence....if not, certainly the smallest

.
 
Thanks for that,a lot to take in even after 2 readings so I wiill just give the thoughts that stayed with me after the 2 readings:
really surprised to read that someone in the business says grisly murders have been done to death-would love to know what stats they have used to come to that conclussion,but of course I am in no position to argue,
secondly,its actually quite hard for me to gague how serious you are about getting success but,to repeat,if you are,I think you are less likely to achieve this if you dont read at least one Martina Cole book.
and,finally I ask about the hero because,if you are going to write about a debt-collector,I would imagine that he really would have to be a VERY interesting,well-written character and its almost certainly harder to make the reader care about him than if he were doing almost anything else.
which,you no doubt realise.
I totally understand the point about simply getting it written.
 
actually,re the observation on grisly murders,I suspect that she/he may have had, at the back of their mind,Martina Coles enormous success in non-grisly-murder crime books.
All the more reason to read her,I would have thought
 
I would suspect that the comment was made by someone who had a list full of writers who deal in gruesome murders, & was pontificating about reading something else.
Whilst not knocking Martina Cole, (I've always had the impression that she wrote more for women but thats probably me being neanderthalish regarding something I dont know) I dont really see the reason on getting fixated with her if I'm not necessarily aiming at her target audience, & I would say that about any author. For eg I could probably learn a lot from Jack Higgins but its not my style so why bother? After saying that I havent read her so I cant say for certain, so may well have a look.

Regarding being serious, I think that anybody can potentially try & write 1 book, but I think if they then attempt others then they are obviously serious, as they would be by writing massive posts on the subject when they should probably be writing :lol

hotspur said:
and,finally I ask about the hero because,if you are going to write about a debt-collector,I would imagine that he really would have to be a VERY interesting,well-written character and its almost certainly harder to make the reader care about him than if he were doing almost anything else
Click to expand...

I assume the intention is of making every character that you write about interesting & well written, otherwise theres little point surely :thinking
 
well,there are books where the main character is not that interesting eg The Da Vinci Code and that book was definitely not well-written,to boot.
I am actually still not entirely sure how serious you are as I found your comment a bit ambiguous but I am plumping for serious.
It does not matter one iota what your target audience is,only whether a publisher sees a market.Therefore the more your book reminds the publisher of a Martina Cole book the more likely you are(imho)to get published.
Yep,Martina Cole appeals more to women,as does most fiction(thats why women are more understanding ha,ha!) and thats something would need to think about IF you are serious.
In general,men dont read fiction so if you are to succeed you will have to make this character appeal to women OR be exceptional.
Why bother reading Martina Cole-well specifically to learn how to write the chapter you wrote above in 4 sentences and yet make it more compelling.
 
btw I should make clear that my last comment was about the original prologue which I reckon Cole really would do in 6 sentences.
The actual chapter is imo well written and obviously cant be wriitten that much more concisely.*
Whether all th detail is actually neede I obviously cant say cos I dont know why its there yet.

anyway well done

*which is quite funny considering the next post:)
 
Damn it,spent 45 mins trying to find my only MCole book but to no avail.wouldve quoted a paragraph.
TC is right,no doubt about it.That first(new)chapter reads much better if you cut out all of the writing between the first paragraph and the sentence beginning,"another noise...".
But I aint a novelist so no reason why you should believe me so, in lieu of the MC paragraph, let me quote from a book I did find
"How to Write a Million",the complete guide to becoming a successful author(which,strangely enough,has failed to help me write a best-selling book)....
"readers are only interested in explanation AFTER their curiosity has been aroused by something in need of explaining.In the beginning of a story in particular drop the people out of the plane and THEN say how they got there.Introduce your character,let him act and show himself and engage the readers sympathies and curiosty.THEN tell his background,if you need to.
Only important things,needed to understand this story RIGHT NOW should be explained.
Be tough with exposition.Make each piece justify its inclusion at that particular point in the story.It shouldnt be any longer than it has to be to do its essential work.Then get back to the plot asap.
 
As it happens I recently read a book where right at the beginning the hero hears a noise while he is upstairs in bed with his wife (so its a bit of a cliche innit,ha,ha)and I think it would be interesting for readers of this thread to read that first chapter next time you are in a book shop.

Its "The Fear Index" by Robert Harris

"It must have been about 3.50 in the morning that something caused Hoffman to wake.He struggled up from the depths of sleep and opened his eyes to behold a celestial vision of fiery white light."

I should explain in case anyone does read further in a shop,that this first scene is actually very important to the rest of the story and thus there is quite a lot of detail but nothing about Hoffmans background except for a desription of the mansion which also serves to reveal one or two things about Hoffman and his wife.
(For what its worth,I found this book disappointing so dont buy it!)
 
Swoops - if you're looking for someone to splurge on your back, then I'm your man :naughty
 
Bit tricky this, some wouldn't agree, but I'm definitely finding this whole thing tricky :unsure It is sex scene sunday though, but no, ODM (or Seen), there is no rape.....
 
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